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73 Comments

  1. Hey guys, cool post. I'm finishing up my DPT (Finally finished in 10 weeks!) and have some similar concerns as you brought up. I think it really depends on the university you go to and the people who influence you along the way. From an S and C background it's very easy to be biased toward gray cook, sahrman, mcgill weingroff. I wish my professors knew more about these individuals and obviously they have great info.

    When I asked my professors about this they pretty much had the same response which was to keep an open mind. There is amazing work coming from all over the place in the therapy world. Although these individuals are great its important to take all information with a grain of salt, incorporate what is working for you and leave what doesn't. I just came back from CSM in San Diego and was very, very impressed by the people presenting there. Presenters there were familiar with the FMS, were citing and expanding upon work by Sahrman (who spoke there) and were backing up their ideas with evidence.

    We learned all about breathing and development as it applies to every patient. I was doing belly time with my patients, working on breathing and using NDT parts at my last clinic. My professors also go out of their way to ensure we learn the latest evidence but I think you walk a fine line by teaching the newest or latest trend in therapy because it has not yet been validated by the research which can be dangerous for our patients.

    There's absolutely so much to learn it's almost impossible to get all of that information over to a learning student (on top of the fact that we're learning to pass a boarding exam, not just become a good therapist). Good post.

  2. Thanks for the comment Daniel, great to hear another students insight on the matter. I think your right on when you said you need to take what's works for you and leave what doesn't. At the end of the day if you can get results that's all that really matters. Good luck with boards, it must feel good to see that light at the end of the tunnel after all these years!

  3. Glad to see you've come to the same conclusion as I have. As a Kinesiologist I want to return to school to upgrade, but feel disillusioned by Chiro and Physio schools as the are missing core concepts. I've worked with PTs, DCs, DOs, and MDs. All have valuable insight, but it is the ones that are continuing their education and combining methods from various schools of though that are they best. I've adopted practices from all four schools… I just need a new title to practice under in order to get paid more for doing the same thing. I haven't decided yet which school to go to though. If you had to do it over again, where would you go?

  4. Wow. I was going to criticism the length. Then I read it.

    • That is a good read. Looking around at practitioners who are succeeding, it's the post formal education that makes all the difference. There are brilliant PT's, DC's and trainers. I'm behind functional movement 100%.

    • Thanks Lief

  5. How about including Osteopaths into the mix.

    • Thanks for the reply Todd. I truthfully haven't met a lot of Osteopaths in Canada but I would love to chat about your experiences

    • This is just a way of thinking Todd. We could also include MDs, NDs etc. but the major controversy is with PTs vs. Chiros as antagonizing professions

    • We have an osteopath who we use who offers a phenomenal balance. In my opinion, when compared to Chiro's, they use a better holistic model that can help our athletes in many more areas. The ability to offer a medical approach (medicines specifically) and the joint by joint approach, manipulations (bone and muscle) are a great value. PT's, well, I LOVE good PT's. Actually, my opinion is that as a society, in the States, we are taught that MD's are the 'Be all, end all' with any health issue. A shift in thinking needs to change. A respect for the specialities needs to be embraced. I could go on for hours on this topic, and my wife IS an MD.

    • Saying anyone provides "a better model" is antithetical to any of these discussions. Throw it out the window. We should all take responsibility to offer the best model available, regardless of the initials after our names.

    • I like your post Todd. I've found, though, that you cant label PT's are this way, DC's are that way, and DO's are another way. I know chiros that are more of a PT than most PT's, and chiros that are more holistic than anyone could hope to be . These are the exceptions, though, not the rule. I see your point though.

    • The reality is that different 'models' are used, and I've yet to see a PT or DC surgically repair an ACL tear, thus in scenarios the different models are indeed 'better' depending in the issue/population one deals with.

    • Well the ACL analogy is a given. I liked your comments but was a bit thrown on DOs being more holistic. In the end all that matters is how a patient is managed, lots of outdated evaluation and treatment out there.

  6. Fantastic.

  7. Great article. very well written with a great rational approach to an often subjective topic. The common theme my colleagues and I push out is that there should be no difference in the best chiros/physios, we are all taught, exposed and have access to the same body of research/information.

    I've been interested in the FMS and DNS courses for a while. Researching up on ways to learn more from Australia now.

    • Thanks for the response Brain. I think there is or was a FMS cert just recently in your area. I highly recommend you do that and the SFMA. I will be doing DNS C course soon and Im telling you it will change the way you think!

  8. Awesome! Thanks for jotting this down!

  9. Excellent read.

  10. I've read it twice. Thanks you two. I am inspired that maybe we will all GET IT. Coming together and sharing between these two professions is a win-win-win. For DCs, PTs, and most importantly the public.

  11. Fantastic article!! As a DC who works in a physical therapy clinic, we are constantly sharing thoughts, ideas, and techniques. DNS, SFMA, and FMS are at the core of our treatment philosophies. I'm scheduled to perform a discussion to the sports council at Palmer west (my alma mater) on the importance if these three movement based philosophies. In my opinion, if these future DC's aren't receiving this info w/ the standard curriculum , it's up to the alumni to fill the void. Thank you again for your insight on this topic. I hope this makes the rounds to every PT/DC student.

  12. I am looking to hire a DPT. Email me at stevenroffers@gmail.com.

  13. Great post guys! Kudos to you for writing it and being a part of it while in school. The future continues to be bright for those of us with this process of thought. Keep up the great work!

  14. Thank you for sharing! Your discussion is right on the mark with ideas I have been forming over the last couple months of my education as a chiro. "Adjustments are a tool in the toolbox" which I completely agree with.

    • Thanks for the reply Justin

    • Love this. As a PT student, totally agree with the sentiment. I think there are definitely two types of people in both professions – those that contribute to progress and an interdisciplinary/mutli-professional approach to health care, and those that keep us stuck in the dark age and trapped in our not so positive stereotypes. Cheers to broadening our educational horizons, working WITH each other, moving toward treating pain and injury at the source instead of the symptom (and with that, moving toward PREVENTION in addition to treatment), and offering the treatment that our patients truly deserve.

    • thanks for the reply Melisa and good luck with school! Like you said I hope this is a step in the right direction for future healthcare providers

  15. Great insight. As a DC I have worked with over 40 PT/DPT's. I have always worked in an interdisciplinary setting. I too am looking to bring on a DPT. my email is drburtenshaw@pioneerclinic.com. My practice is in Boise Idaho area

  16. I was at Dr. Liebenson's semianr this week end with s solid Group of Trainers, PTs and DCs, and thequestion came up,"So what do we call ourselves?" We have outgrown thes labels, we are not limited to the dogma of the institutions we graduated from, we have moved on. So What do we call ourselves?

    • Thanks for the reply Donald, I always like the sound of Doctor of Manual Medicine myself

    • Dr Lewit prefers Musculoskeletal Medicine so as not to imply too much passive care. But, many have an issue w/ Medicine being in the title.

    • This is a great blogpost, and very nice to hear the opposing backgrounds, but the same viewpoints! I don't care what they call us, as long as I know who to work with and who to avoid (in any profession)

    • Craig Liebenson Active care is key and this is one of the big things you have taught me. I hope that this point was brought out in this article.

  17. Fantastic article! Thank you for taking the time, in detail, to include problems observed, name changers, and contrasting both sides. I am a trainer working for companies such as TRX, DVRT and Stroops, sharing in these same philosophies and am blessed to have a team of DC's and a PT that keep me moving well because of their desire to excel in movement, following the 3 you mentioned as well as a few others. We have a facility that houses training/ fun classes on one side and the DC's and Naturepath and massage, on the other. It's a one stop shop. We will have juicing/bar, to come also. 🙂 Keep sharing your info, thank you so much! Hugs from Seattle!

    • Thanks for this Elizabeth and I think your situation needs to be the standard. We need to work with ATC,S&C, Trainers more often as the ACTIVE care component to what we do is huge!

  18. Creating a tide of change. Well done gents. Honored to be mentioned.

    • Doc you know that you have paved the way for a lots of us and its because we have stood on the shoulders of giants that we are in the position that we are in now!

  19. To have such insightful people as students is amazing. I was out of school quite a few years before I came to realize what you have right now. You are spot on, you've seen the problem and now you can be part of the solution. Welcome to the profession guys. We need you.

  20. Very good you guys! Now do you want editorial input from a non-clinician? More paragraph breaks. :~)

    • Kyle Balzer and Jas Randhawa, I'm super glad to hear you'll be recording on this for MovementLectures.com this weekend. Very great stuff!

    • Haha thanks for the input, Laree! Would love to do it 🙂

    • Thanks for the amazing opportunity! MovementLectures.com is such an amazing resources especially for students looking to improve their clinical knowledge

  21. Excellent post gentlemen, great read and couldn't agree with you more. Look forward to meeting you both at the top or to the right! THANKS for sharing!

  22. I think this is a great article. I have taken the FMS course (according to their website I am an "expert" now) and am planning to take the SFMA in the future because I know they are valuable. The only issue I have with this article is its very specific to ONE population. The reality is with a lot of people (for example the majority of the population I treat with the exception of some high level athletes) they want to come in, recover from their injury, and get back to work painfree ASAP while having some idea of what to do on their own time to prevent it from happening again. People that work 8-6 and have families, in reality, do not want to come in and do this stuff for an hour. In addition, when you are in an associateship, like many of us are, we are given 15-20 minute slots to treat our patients. Unless you own your own clinic or find someone who practices FMS, SFMA, DNS etc (which is few and far between) you will likely not come out of school and be able to employ all these techniques. So in saying this, there are many other tools to use that can help patients (and again adjustment being just one of them). In our clinic our patients come in and see me for 15 minutes (ART/adjust if necessary/diaphragmatic breathing techniques/Acupuncture/show them exercises etc). They then either get a modality, or hit the gym, or both with our kinesiology students monitoring them. Anyway, sorry for the long winded response, but I felt the article was very specific for a "sport/athlete" population and was somewhat naive as to what some other populations want/need/demand. Really liked many of the points though and definitely agree cook/liebensen etc needs to start being taught in our institutions.

    • Sfma is a great course Mike. Ill be taking advanced in Ottawa.

    • Thanks Mike, interesting points and I respect the fact that sometimes you cant hold a bigger hammer over your patients. I do think that its important to try and fit it in when/where you can but there are still aspects of this article that can apply to anyone. The top tier tests of the SFMA literally take 2mins 30 secs to do and will guide your treatment protocols. Thanks for posting!

  23. Great article. I like the bell curve analogy — we should worry more about the professional rather than the profession — make sure we see someone who looks at movement and functional training, etc rather than the degree!

  24. I am an ATC, CSCS and use FMS, SMFA with my athletes in the evenings while attending the DC program at Life West. What school are you attending? Let us know when you making out this way. Great article

    • Thanks Lance, Im at CMCC in Toronto, do you guys have a R2P club out there yet? If not contact me

    • Informative article! Thanks for posting.

  25. Loved this article. I've got to tell you that the same problem is occurring in Australia 100%. I'm a DC and my partner is just finishing her DPT and we both lament the fact that both professions seem to be at each other's throats, while both seemingly missing the point entirely.

    The comment that you made about institutions teaching "various subjects that really should have been connected together, yet they were being taught without even considering the importance of their unified integration" is right on the mark. The biggest 'paradigm shift' that Gray mentions in his book is to actually not look at separate things in isolation but to put it all together into one big FUNCTIONAL clinical picture, as opposed to the sum of the bodies individual parts.

    I applaud this article and both your efforts.

  26. Great job guys 🙂 I think your comment about being 'problem solvers' is spot on. Both professions are guilty of finding a couple of possible contributing factors in a patient, treating them, and hoping that the problem will go away. Sure, this may be successful in some cases, however are we actually getting to the source of the problem?

  27. Can't agree with this more. I worked for Boyle for a lil before going back to get my DPT. It is such a frustrating experience in school right now. Thank goodness for some great mentors in life. Can't wait to take boards and start expanding and practicing with a rehab to performance mentality.

  28. I am a manual PT for 15 yrs, using Pilates for 11 yrs and now Gyrotonic movements for 7 yrs and I really like the article. It brings up great topics and ideas. I realized in my Pilates Certification that the person I was learning from did not have to be a PT and I now study with whomever has an idea that sparks my interest.

  29. Thanks Jess

  30. thanks jess!!!

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